[Rejected] Fixing Profession Nodes - It's Barren out Here!

Locked
User avatar
Ashiel
Posts: 145
Joined: 08 Oct 2010 08:15

[Rejected] Fixing Profession Nodes - It's Barren out Here!

#1 » Post by Ashiel » 02 Dec 2011 16:00

Hey, I was talking to one of the GMs earlier, and asked why the profession node issue hadn't been fixed yet; since it's so easy to fix. (S)he said to post a summary of the issue and the proposed fix on the suggestion board; so here we are.

The Problem
There is a severe lack of profession nodes (herbalism, mining, etc) in the world. I'm guessing they just haven't been added to the database yet. The problem is that it's causing certain professions to be inordinately difficult to level; resulting in you being far higher in level than your professions would suggest, because you just can't find nodes. It also creates something of an issue with competing with others for materials. I've been camped out around 1 node in Elwynn Forest for about 2-3 hours now, just to level my Herbalism skill; merely because I've found a place it actually spawns at (and quickly).

It's not just herbalism, but herbalism is the most noticeably barren of the mining nodes. However, a quick trip through some of the mines reveals a severe lack of mining nodes as well. I had a friend join the server recently, and she is used to playing retail, and she was like "Where are all the herbs!?".

Now, to show some evidence for what I'm claiming, here is a link to the old wow-head for reference.
http://old.wowhead.com/object=1617 (Silverleaf)
http://old.wowhead.com/object=1731 (Copper Vein)
http://old.wowhead.com/object=2843 (Battered Chest)

By browsing the different areas, you can see the number of nodes that are supposed to be present, as well as locations for those nodes. The problem is, anyone with eyes in their head can see that there is a problem, merely be strolling casually through any of the areas these are mentioned to spawn in. Occasionally you might see one or two, spread far, far apart. It's not just Elwynn Forest, or even just the basic nodes like Silverleaf and Copper, it's pretty much everything.

Suggested Fix
The beauty of this problem is the simplicity of its solution. Since you can permanently spawn objects via GM commands in Trinity, it wouldn't be difficult to assign a GM to travel the world and populate it with nodes as appropriate, using old.wowhead.com as a reference for how many nodes should be present, and where they should be. In fact, it shouldn't be too terribly hard to solve this problem within a week, taking a couple of hours each day to turn invisible, speed yourself up, and travel around dropping nodes. If you make a macro, you can set the object and respawn time before actually placing the object, and then go around and just click the button as needed.

Once one region is complete, move to the next, etc, etc. Repeat for Eastern Kingdoms, Kalimdor, Outlands, and Northrend as needed. Having played around with TrinityCore myself, I know it's actually kind of fun, and really not much of a hassle at all.

Estimated Benefits
Currently people are already complaining about how barren the auction house is. Gathering materials is a huge pain currently. By increasing the amount of nodes to be Blizzlike, it would encourage more gathering (or at least make it a little less of a hassle) which would of course stimulate the auction house. When new players arrive, finding a world that looks less barren, combined with an auction house that looks less anemic, makes the server look good (I know the server is good, but it could look better). It would also help to keep the economy a little less bloated. A lot of items end up overpriced due to the difficult in attaining them. This is of course supply and demand, but the demand shouldn't be so high and the supply so low, on a Blizzlike like this.

Additional Thoughts
To make it easy on the GMs, we could also post which areas of the world need attention in this thread, and provide links to old.wow-head.com when stuff is missing. That way it's easy to keep track of which areas have been resolved, which haven't, which are missing certain things, etc.
Don't Be The Fool! Learn Logic and Reason Today!
Straw Man Fallacy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5vzCmURh7o
Red Herring: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exdK7Lirngg
Ad Hominem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GzXVqwYHVE
Good Logical Structure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAmgEa1B1vI
Strong vs Weak Argument: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXMAR63TVDI

User avatar
Roel
Founder
Posts: 6437
Joined: 17 May 2010 14:51
Location: Planet Earth

Re: Fixing Profession Nodes - It's Barren out Here!

#2 » Post by Roel » 02 Dec 2011 16:16

It's not as easy as that. Nodes shouldn't be spawned with GM commands.

Wowhead isn't an appropriate source of information for the number of spawns because it includes all gathered data of spawn locations instead of when it was gathered and how many spawns are up at one time. Blizzard uses a spawn pool that randomly replaces spawns with certain herbs and only allows for so many spawns to be active at one time. Also, the spawns in retail vary.

Issues with herbs/nodes are in the pooling system.

User avatar
Ashiel
Posts: 145
Joined: 08 Oct 2010 08:15

Re: Fixing Profession Nodes - It's Barren out Here!

#3 » Post by Ashiel » 02 Dec 2011 16:26

Roel wrote:It's not as easy as that. Nodes shouldn't be spawned with GM commands.

Wowhead isn't an appropriate source of information for the number of spawns because it includes all gathered data of spawn locations instead of when it was gathered and how many spawns are up at one time. Blizzard uses a spawn pool that randomly replaces spawns with certain herbs and only allows for so many spawns to be active at one time. Also, the spawns in retail vary.

Issues with herbs/nodes are in the pooling system.
So why not meet in the middle? It's obvious that there are far too few nodes. If merely adding more instances of objects to the database isn't a good fix, what would you propose? It really needs to get fixed in either case. I just noted that the easiest way I know of would be via object spawning; since it will permanently add it to the database at the coordinate set (at least, I know it worked for my copy of trinity).

For example, even if there's not supposed to be 142 silverleaf nodes in Elwynn Forest, it should definitely have far - faaaar - more than it does. Wandering from one end of Elwynn Forest to the other results in maybe finding 5 nodes. I ended up finding one node that was spawning quickly, and camped it; because actually playing the game meant no nodes. Walking through the mines; same problem. Virtually no nodes. I know it's not because people are grabbing all of them, because there's nobody online to grab them. :roll:

So if not manually adding them to the database, what would you propose, Mr. Roel?
It really does feel pretty dead out here.
Don't Be The Fool! Learn Logic and Reason Today!
Straw Man Fallacy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5vzCmURh7o
Red Herring: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exdK7Lirngg
Ad Hominem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GzXVqwYHVE
Good Logical Structure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAmgEa1B1vI
Strong vs Weak Argument: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXMAR63TVDI

User avatar
Ashiel
Posts: 145
Joined: 08 Oct 2010 08:15

Re: Fixing Profession Nodes - It's Barren out Here!

#4 » Post by Ashiel » 02 Dec 2011 16:36

Also, in an effort to be helpful, here's some sources besides WoWhead.

http://www.almarsguides.com/wow/tradesk ... balism.cfm
Throughout this area you will find dozens and dozens of Peacebloom/Silverleaf nodes as well as some Earthroot (more on Earthroot later). If you’re confused exactly to what the herbs look like or just for the sake of argument need to see a picture of them, below is a picture of both the herbs you will be farming.
Bold emphasis mine. This guide describes it as dozens of dozens, which even if he was exaggerating, half that would be about 72 nodes in just the small area the guide is noting; which is only about 1/4th of Elywnn Forest proper.

http://www.curseguides.com/world-of-war ... alism-map/
Elwynn Forest is a typical starting zone in that it contains a great deal of the same herb nodes. You will find Peacebloom, Silverleaf and Earthroot here in decent abundance, each of them interchangeable with the rest. The best route then is to stay to the southern half of the map and do a loop around the road, hugging the water to the south and staying near the waterways to the north. A wide loop around the farms and Goldshire as well as a tight loop around the Logging Camp will most often reward you with a great deal of herbs.
Again, bolded for emphasis. Both of these guides are based on retail, and their commentary very accurately reflects what old.wowhead.com describes, both in location and abundance.

This should at least show that there is an existing problem here. We could continue discussing how to fix that problem, of course. The best method may be different than I described previously, but it probably should be fixed. Even if it's not perfectly Blizzlike, just getting more nodes of all kinds out there in the world would make it closer to Blizzlike than it is now. Because right now, the spawning pool doesn't work like Blizzlike AND it's barren out there.
Don't Be The Fool! Learn Logic and Reason Today!
Straw Man Fallacy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5vzCmURh7o
Red Herring: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exdK7Lirngg
Ad Hominem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GzXVqwYHVE
Good Logical Structure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAmgEa1B1vI
Strong vs Weak Argument: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXMAR63TVDI

User avatar
Roel
Founder
Posts: 6437
Joined: 17 May 2010 14:51
Location: Planet Earth

Re: Fixing Profession Nodes - It's Barren out Here!

#5 » Post by Roel » 02 Dec 2011 16:39

I don't know how to fix it properly. Even the Trinity devs don't seem to know how to properly handle this although they have shown some progress lately.

I am not going to apply such hacky fixes because our goal is to be as blizzlike as possible and this would only cause complications when it's really fixed. Also the right way of fixing database problems is with SQL, not with commands in game.

It is up to those devs because I won't put invalid data in the database just to make it more playable. This problem is just beyond my knowledge to be honest.

User avatar
Ashiel
Posts: 145
Joined: 08 Oct 2010 08:15

Re: Fixing Profession Nodes - It's Barren out Here!

#6 » Post by Ashiel » 02 Dec 2011 16:51

Roel wrote:I don't know how to fix it properly. Even the Trinity devs don't seem to know how to properly handle this although they have shown some progress lately.

I am not going to apply such hacky fixes because our goal is to be as blizzlike as possible and this would only cause complications when it's really fixed. Also the right way of fixing database problems is with SQL, not with commands in game.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when I was messing around with Trinity, the GM-commands were actually adding the game objects to the database. Has this changed in a recent development? What I mean is, it was modifying the SQL database from the game-client. Worked like a charm, and saved properly (as in it didn't have to be redone each time the server went down).

Given the fact it is just as easy to remove game objects from the SQL database by using the GM-Command for (of course) removing objects, I'm not exactly seeing how this isn't fixing it in the SQL database itself. Perhaps you could explain it to me, so I could try to think of another option?

Also, what is an AH Bot if not a "hacky fix" for playability? Didn't True-WoW used to have an AH Bot? People are requesting another just because the AH is in a pitiful shape at the moment. I believe that is partially due to the fact there's such a large problem with the professions at the moment because of the lack of game-objects.
It is up to those devs because I won't put invalid data in the database just to make it more playable. This problem is just beyond my knowledge to be honest.
Define "invalid data" for me? I'm not sure I understand what you mean exactly.
Don't Be The Fool! Learn Logic and Reason Today!
Straw Man Fallacy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5vzCmURh7o
Red Herring: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exdK7Lirngg
Ad Hominem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GzXVqwYHVE
Good Logical Structure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAmgEa1B1vI
Strong vs Weak Argument: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXMAR63TVDI

User avatar
Roel
Founder
Posts: 6437
Joined: 17 May 2010 14:51
Location: Planet Earth

Re: Fixing Profession Nodes - It's Barren out Here!

#7 » Post by Roel » 02 Dec 2011 17:14

The client can help getting coordinates but I don't know for what else you would need it. ANyway ss far as I know spawning new nodes is not the way to fix this, changing the max spawns in the database is a better option but without an accurate source it's only guess work. I will need to do some more research into this when I have more time but anyone is free to post a "fix" at the Trinity issue tracker and look what they have to say about it.

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests